Interviews with Carl Schmitt - On Spain (1962)
Excerpts from interview in Arriba & La Noche
Excerpts from a conversation with Ignacio María Sanuy, published March 22nd, 1962 in ‘Arriba’, a discontinued Falangist newspaper in Madrid.
Professor Carl Schmitt is an important figure in European legal science. The conversation begins with timidity. I suggest three topics of conversation: Spain, Europe, and Spain in Europe. The professor answers slowly, as if he was caressing each word, figuring out its hidden roots.
Europe is a great space. A new conception of a great space. Europe is not small, but it is not big enough to be identified with the world. Neither the US nor the Soviet Union are that big. We are in a transitory period. Industrialization produces new spaces. But we must prevent the idea of ‘tecnificación’ from being considered, on its own, capable of automatically producing the political unity of the world.
We go on to evaluate another buzzword: supranationality. The professor isn’t particularly moved by that word. These were his considerations:
In aggressive steering we may find unity. Once again, we come across the old dispute of the friend-enemy distinction. In reference to supranationality, I see it the same way as a young French jurist, Dr. Francis Rosentiel. He has just published a book in Paris about the principle of supranationality. From the theoretical point of view, the author puts together legal science with social norms, and chooses the law tradition over scientific conservatism. From the practical point of view, he questions the future of supranational organisms and shows how a legal construction, no matter how perfect, is still a simulation if politics doesn’t give it a reason for being.
Carl Schmitt tells us about Spain:
I have a fondness for Spain. But I don’t wish to talk about this sweet affection. Objectively, I feel irritated by the inferiority complex of the Spaniards. The situation in Spain is ideologically superior to that of the rest of Europe. You are the only ones to have defeated communism. Perhaps this insecurity was justified 3 centuries ago. That’s the harsh voice of Quevedo. But not now. I ask myself, why neither the English nor the French have their own Quevedo by now. Today, you should feel superior. You’ve carried out a historical experience. The very history of the Communist party clearly points to this, talking about a ‘war of liberation’. It is possible that all European countries will have to accredit themselves vis-à-vis Spain; because there is still no common position against communism.
We now go to the last point of our conversation: Spain and Europe.
There is something in common to both the English and the Spaniards. They say that England is ‘of Europe’ but not ‘in Europe’. At least this eccentric position is shared between the two. The English have their Anglo-Saxon space. You have Ibero-America. But England trails behind the US. Spain is not steered by anyone. Nowadays, the English have a true inferiority complex, like you saw centuries ago. But they conceal it perfectly with a national discipline.
Interview by Salvador G. Bolaño, published April 7th, 1962 in La Noche, a discontinued evening newspaper in Santiago de Compostela.
Carl Schmitt’s persona goes beyond any biographical sketch, so we will let the professor himself, by the content of his statements, illustrate the nature of his life and works. We will only add that the clearness of his speech and his friendliness erased any intimidation we might have felt by talking to a man of such talent.
When did you begin practicing law?
In 1915, at the University of Strasbourg, back then a German school, which became French because of World War I.
What was your first work and what was it about?
My first work was a doctoral thesis about ‘Intent and Types of Guilt’1. I got my start as a jurist in criminal law. Back then, I argued that ‘bad intent’ and ‘guilt’ were two different aspects of a single concept. I hold the view that criminal law today cannot sustain itself and needs to base its foundations on constitutional law; for example, the maxim ‘nullum crimen nulla pena sine lege’2 originates from constitutional law.
What positions did you hold in the Third Reich?
With the advent of the Third Reich, I was a professor at the University of Cologne. I had held that job since 1921. I was also the State Councillor for the Prussian State and, until 1936, President of the National Socialist Association of Legal Professionals. In 1936, I resigned from all of my political positions because of an attack made by the weekly newspaper of the SS, ‘Der Schwarze Korps’, against me. Some time later, I retired from my professorship too. It was the most dangerous moment of my life. To be attacked in a totalitarian state by the Party’s newspaper is extremely dangerous. When I speak about this I am told that I wish to justify myself. What can I do?
What opinion could you give us, professor Schmitt, on Chancellor Adolf Hitler?
I never got to speak to him. His hate for jurists was even greater to that he professed towards the Jews. This I know thanks to Hans Franck, who was Minister of Justice in Bavaria and later became Governor-General of Poland. He often talked with Hitler and knew about his opinion of jurists. One time, Franck told me that if I were to ever talk with the Chancellor, it would bring misfortune to me. For my part, as I say, I could only inspect him from a distance. He was a ‘halbgebildet’, that is to say, half-educated, and his lack of culture led him to abhor the educated man.
We had thought that, when WWII ended, you were interned in a concentration camp. Why were you subjected to this treatment?
My answer can be found in my work ‘Ex captivitate salus’, published here in Compostela in the Castilian version. It’s an extremely important book for me. I wrote it while I was in prison, where it was forbidden to do so. An American medic, a friend of mine, got it out of the camp.
There have been rumors that, at that time, you underwent a significant change in your beliefs, is it true?
No. I was a loyal defender of the German Republic, but the Weimar constitution was subject to many interpretations. During that regime, I was an advisor to General Schleicher, it was up to him to prevent Hitler’s rise to power. Because of the fact that Schleicher served in the military, the bourgeois democrats began to talk about ‘militarism’ and facilitated the triumph of Hitler. President Hindenburg has an enormous responsibility, not only for bringing Hitler into Power, but also for allowing him to completely change the Constitution. Throughout my life I’ve lived through six regime changes: the Empire, the Spartacist Republic, the Weimar Republic, Hitler’s regime, the American occupation and the current Federal Republic. I’ve been accused of being too easy-going, but can a man choose the regime in which he lives in? It is much easier to say after going into exile and only returning to your homeland later on. I hope God protects Spain from a government of returned exiles.
Aren’t you, professor Schmitt, the theoretician who developed ‘decisionism’ in the fields of law and politics?
Against Kelsen3 I said that law isn’t just a pure rule, but that it is also ‘decision’. Would the courts and judges make any sense otherwise?
In your opinion, is the European political union desirable?
My mission is the objective analysis of the current situation, not to anticipate myself to the critical judgment of the nations and their peoples.
What role would play, in your opinion, a unified Europe in the concert of the nations?
I’m not a prophet. Still, the problem today is the industrialization of underdeveloped countries, but the issue lies on deciding which of the overdeveloped countries is responsible for industrializing. Both the Americans and the Russians talk about neocolonialism if a European country takes on that mission.
And finally, what has impressed you the most about Galicia?
There are a lot of things that, without a doubt, have made a deep impression on me. But above all of them, that mighty interpenetration between land and sea. It is truly captivating to see a mountainous country such as this one invaded by the ocean. I would like to spend more time here in order to understand its grandeur. Westphalia is, in a certain way, very similar to Galicia. Some time ago I wrote a book titled ‘Land and Sea’ where I mention this preoccupation so deeply rooted in me. Galicia is ‘unheimlich’ (lugubrious, eerie).
Über Schuld und Schuldarten, 1910
‘No crime, no penalty without law’
Hans Kelsen (1881-1973), an Austrian jurist who debated Schmitt throughout the 1920s and 30s on the nature of the ultimate authority of the state in emergency situations and borderline cases.